Sometimes they're just too good to keep to myself.... enjoy!

 

Here are the IM's sent to me by some idiot, and the progression of stupidity on his part.
This week I received an IM on the Vortex from someone I don't know. This is pretty common, I get a lot of IM's from strangers asking about their trans.
They usually give the basic info, tell me what's wrong, and we go from there.
This is one I got earlier this week:

---

i have same probs as mailings ... is it possible the pp is wrong?

---

That's it. I don't know who or what mailings is. At this point, I usually look at the username and profile to see what cars they have listed so I might know what I'm dealing with here.

Join Date

Nov 30th, 2004

Location

Your sexy dreamz!

Posts

449

Vehicles

VWs suck. Try Yugos!

OK, no info there as to what car or trans I'm dealing with, let's fire off a quick IM to get some info...

---

What problems?
What tests have you done?
What trans do you have?
What clutch parts do you have?

---

While waiting, I go look to see if any new threads have popped up to try to find out what mailings might be. I found a thread this idiot posted to and brought from the dead, originally from 2010. The OP was 'jmailings' so not only did mailings not mean anything, it wasn't even the full username. Find the thread here.

Here are the IM's, back and forth. His in RED, mine in BLUE.....

---

asf small spline 8v trans
16v pl engine
tt clutch set: KEP dual strap pressure plate(mk3 2.0L)<one pin
clutch:311 p/n (TYP 3) solid hub disc 200mm small spline
mk3 2.0L lightened flywheel< one pin
pushrod length:339.8875mm
new throw out bearing, Finger has locating spline- only goes on one way. shaft not galled, splines intact.
when installed, pedal i.e. throw out lever does not contact the throwout mechanism.

when inspected, the finger reaches the very end of travel, limited by the case of trans. Clutch release rod at 9-10:30. Rod and bearing recessed heavily inside throwout bearing bore. Finger 2 centimeters away from contact with the throwout bearing. no contact apparently made with throwout plate (metallic clutch release diaphragm).

Trans uninstalled, finger works correctly, rod measures correctly, (340 mm,) and after reinstalling the trans three times, i am convinced that the pressure plate is either defective or sprung incorrectly. TT sourced parts.
originally, the car had a Sachs sport pressure plate, 16v, (8v disc, sport) and stock 16v flywheel.
tt said mk3 2.0l parts would would work.

incidentally, the tt lightened flywheels steps are 4 mm shallower than my 3 stock flywheels.

Im a tech in cali. this is my own gli, and ive done over 60 mk2's, clutches, engine, you name it. ASE cert. and state emissions qualified. totally puzzled. only other time this happened was on a mk3 aba back in 2000. And that time the pressure plate was incorrectly listed as superseded.

---

Nice bit of kit you have there if your tool has a graduation of 0.0001 mm at 13+ inches, that's pretty damn exact.

  Next time it is off, measure to see if you have 24mm of pushrod exposed past the end of the input shaft when the release arm is lifted fully until it stops.
Then allow the release arm to drop fully until it rests on the black plastic stopper clipped to the side of the arm. Press the pushrod into the input shaft and check to see how much is exposed, it should be anywhere from flush to about 4mm exposed.

If those specs test out OK, then the trans and parts in the trans are good, and the problem pretty much HAS to be at the clutch parts.

At that point, you're looking at comparing stock parts to the TT parts to see where the discrepancy is at.

  If you have the selection of parts available, grab a stock FW, PP, and clutch disc combo (MK2 8V, MK2 16V, or MK3 2.0L, as long as they are a matched set of stock parts).
Put the TT combo up on the bench, and start measuring. The thrust plate clipped onto the pressure plate will have to be further from the clutch on the TT parts than on the stock parts.

Start swapping parts around on the bench, replacing the TT parts one at a time until you find the offending TT part that is out of spec. It's not going to be the clutch itself, it doesn't affect the position of the pushrod. The FW and PP will though... the PP controls where the thrust plate sits, then the PP can collapse the PP to drive the thrust plate further away from the pushrod as it is tightened up on it, so swap out the PP, then put it back and swap out the FW. One of them will put the thrust plate in the same spot the stock combo does.

I'm assuming the clutch is fully engaged and connecting the engine and trans together normally, it just isn't releasing or disengaging as you depress the pedal?

As long as the amount of pushrod exposed is in spec, you can concentrate solely on measuring the clutch parts, it'll be in the PP or FW.

---

Hhahahahahaahahahah! this is exactly where I have been for a couple of days.
The original pp exploded. I have used 16v and 8v clutches, and pressure plates, which i know work.
What I'm trying to figure out is what the range of depth on the T/O bearing is. Mocked up, the clutch works.
on the car, it doesn't. End play on the crank is minimal, def in spec. the mount bolts are all tight, torqued down .
The backing plate is on the engine still, and I could just install the old thrashed stuff get the car going then deposit it in the side of a hill, but dammit this setup should work@!@@@@!@!

---

I've never measured the full range of the TO bearing, but it moves at least 20mm total. That is from the release arm sitting on the plastic stopper to fully raised.
The cable will hold it up slightly, but I don't have a measurement for the pushrod when the release arm is level at 9:00... I believe the normal operation range is less than 10mm though.

---

So at this point, I figure it is pretty much sorted. He thought it was the clutch parts, I thought it was the clutch parts, it sounds like it is the clutch parts. He asked about the range of depth on the TO bearing, which while I don't think it has anything to do with the problem he is having, I'll try to give an answer and I tell him roughly what the range is... honestly, the 5th housing can affect the range, some let the finger swing more, some not as much, this is why the release arm sometimes stops just before the 27mm selector, and sometimes it can actually contact it. It's in the 5th housing machining.

I'm kind of expecting the IM chain to end here... problem discussed, we've basically agreed it is something with the clutch. I can't go and actually fit the parts and examine them myself, I can only help someone so much online really... so I expected the next IM to be something like "OK, thanks for the help, I'll try another stock clutch kit and see if it works and will let you know" or something to that effect.

Nope.

This is what I got this morning after waking up...

---

How long have you been doing these trans? scirocco trans before 1987 are early style. scirocco trans after 1987 are late. MK 1 vs Mk2 is totally not how vw classifies their own cars. all euro manufacturers use vin code/date of manufacture rather than generational differences as a result of the manufacturing process (updates, etc.).

Ive been dealing with these cars since 1993. Some of your measurements need to be verified. 10 mm of throwout activation? how did you arrive at that spec? how many trans have you inspected? is your 2.0 L an 8v or 16v?

---

Right away I'm wondering who this person thinks he is, asking me how long I've been doing them. It's free help. If you don't think I know what I'm doing, move on. He then tells me about early and late and how to refer to the models. Tells me how long he has dealt with VWs and that I need to verify my measurements and then asking if I have an 8V or 16V... what the fuck difference does THAT make anyway?

I've had enough of this shit at this point... so I send this big ass IM off in 2 parts...

---

OK, let me tell you something.... I'm not your personal assistant, you don't pay me, I'm not obliged to help you in any way, and you've acted like nothing but a rude prick.

To start with, you IM me out of the blue with NO info on your car, wanting answers. Lots of people have the decency to start out with something like "Sorry to bother you via IM" or "Hope you don't mind the IM", but not you.
You shoot an IM off, no reference at all to what you drive, what you problem is, etc., and then you reference 'mailings', like I know what mailings is.
Turns out mailings is a thread from 2010 I posted to. Did you notice the 14600+ posts by my name? Do you realize it had been 14 months since I posted in that thread?
Did you expect me to just know who mailings is, know what car you drive, know what problems you are talking about?

I sent a message back asking for specifics, and in that time, searched and found the thread, so I had some background info to use to help solve YOUR problem for FREE with MY time. Get it?

You sent back a list that actually told me what trans and clutch parts you were using.

So I sent you a list of possible causes, what to do if you have the parts, I explain where the problem has to be based on the info you've given me. I mean, I know you've spent a pretty penny on the advice you've demanded out of the blue, so you should expect your monies worth, but I think I spent some decent time typing out and telling you what I thought, which was the clutch parts were not right.

I tell you how to check to make sure the specs are right on the pushrod when the trans is off, so the trans can be removed as a possible cause.

I'm not sure what else to say, you think it is the clutch parts, I said I think it is the clutch parts. You've got mixed up clutch parts that are new and they don't work but the old clutch did, this seems cut and dried to me. Frankly it's not that difficult to sort out. Clutch pedal, cable, release arm, specs on the pushrod, clutch parts. That's all there is to it. I figure we're done.

Nope, you ask about the TO bearing bore and range of movement.
I've never measured it. Believe it or not, I do this as a courtesy to other VW owners. I'm not obliged to provide every spec and measurement for the 020 trans. Every bit of info I've given is because I've spent hours learning it, verifying it, and then making the web page for it. I'm not contracted to do it, paid to do it, or owe anyone any info. I don't get in one bit of trouble if every single thing I've posted is wrong. I don't get any awards if it is right.

Right, so at this point I'm pretty much wondering why you can't measure it yourself (anyone who can measure 1/10th of a micron at 13" must surely have the common sense and tools to measure a 5th housing bore), and also wondering why bother when it seems sort of clear that the 5th housing, bearing, and bore hasn't changed since the clutch tore up, you put new clutch parts in it, and the clutch stopped working. The clutch parts have changed though, so why start on the TO bearing bore inspection?

I gave you the specs to look for earlier. Does it extend to 24mm? Does it reduce to 0-4mm when the arm is dropped? Then stop looking at the trans, it's wasted time.
If you wanted me to, in the middle of my work day to go out on my bench, clear of a paying trans rebuild job, then measure out a 5th housing and bore for your whims and curiosity, you'll keep wanting.
I told you roughly what it moves. If you want more info, PAY ME to do it, or do it yourself. Then when you do it yourself you can decide if you want to take pics, make text, spend time publishing the page, and maintain the site with the 020 info that you've researched.

You've sent this highly condescending and offensive IM, I'm only assuming due to your lack of satisfaction with the services you've paid for (that would be IM'ing me out of the blue with a random and senseless question you seem to already know the answer to).
Let's address your points one at a time.

  Long enough I've had Bentley tech editors contact me for rebuild work, so long enough that it would seem I've fooled everyone into thinking I know what I'm doing somehow!
Believe it or not, even a tech of many years experience and confidence might opt to IM me for help, as I'm that well known.
So, the answer is: long enough.

  All trans before and after Sept 8th, 1987 were changed, not just Scirocco trans.
The only change is the location of the filler hole. Nothing else.
What does this have to do with the clutch or the info I've given?

  I'm not a euro mfg. so I'll call it MK1, mark 1, emkay 1, A1, Rabbit, or anything else I happen to feel like calling it.
Since I'm the one with a working clutch and a waiting list months-long for rebuild work, I'll let you in on a little secret... it doesn't matter what it is or where it came from. All that matters is the code and mfg. date on the trans. So you call it whatever you like.
I know exactly how VW does it, and I'd wager a bet that I'm pretty aware of the running design changes in the 020 over the years. Not that any of it would affect a clutch issue that continues to (for the moment) burn up my valuable time.

  Then why doesn't your clutch work? Why are you IM'ing me for help? Is this a pissing contest? I've been dealing with them since 1989, so I guess my piss is better. I know my clutch works... does that make my piss better?

  And your hands are broken? Take that device that measures 0.0001 MM at 13+" and verify away. Nobody is stopping you. Nothing entitles you to any free information.
I do trans work on the side. I like to do other things besides stand in the garage all day. My best friend was told this summer (on his 38th birthday) that he has about a year to live. Excuse me if I don't jump to attention when some stranger needs a pointless measurement. I guess you'll have to do the verifying yourself, won't you?
When you verify it, then you can go back to where the problem is. The clutch parts.

  Did I say that? I seem to recall saying exactly this: "I believe the normal operation range is less than 10mm though."

Can you read half as well as you wrench? That means exactly what it says. LESS THAN 10mm during normal operation. I want to say 7mm, but I don't feel like going to verify this. I didn't when it was cold and pissing down rain last night, especially considering it's barking up a tree for nothing if 4mm/24mm specs out at the pushrod.

So... yeah, I still think it is less than 10mm and hey, if I'm wrong, save your receipt and get your money back.

  I used common sense for one, experience for another, and 'a lack of desire to fix your problem by checking specs that won't matter while not being paid' was added in.
That's how I got to that spec, which was clearly listed as "less than"... and if you and your mechanical experience missed that, well, that might explain your clutch not working. It wasn't a spec. It was a rough estimate. It was also a polite way of saying "quit wasting my time with questions that don't matter. You have a bunch of clutch parts that suddenly won't work. It's the clutch, duh."

  Enough that I don't IM people because my clutch isn't working. That many.

  My 2.0L is a markIII 2.0L ABA bottom end with a 1.8 8V emkay2 head and an A1 Scirocco AGB trans.
Again something that has absolutely no influence on your clutch not working.

Just in case it isn't clear, I'm done with dealing with your problem and accusatory line of questioning.

---

Wow you post in a forum and have a website. What Hardship. If i was being rude, i would have asked you if youre a member of ATRA, HaVE ASE certifications or what not, since you're the one posting like you're a ****ing pro. Don't talk like you know about what you're doing unless you are prepared to answer some weird questions.
Btw, what ended being the problem with The transmission in the thread? if you're such an epic rebuilder?

Anyway, since I'm a ASE certified member of AERA and ATRA, own a shop and have been an emissions technician for ten years, and engine machinist for twelve, I figured it was possible you'd know something I didn't about this particular job. You have now proved me conclusively wrong. Good Day, sir.

---

go **** your mother you ****ing peasant. so you're not a pro.DUH. And, you're using a different block than a 16v, which is why I asked. If you're so good, why don't you do it for a living? What does the bentley editor have to do with your skills? If the president has you change his oil, that doesn't make you vice president.
This isn't a pissing contest. You're dickless, and your attitude sucks. BTW, you posted on your own website that you didn't know what the deal with your own 'rocco was! look at the site you're so proud of- I wasnt accusing you of anything you ****ing *******! Jesus, could your ill friend possibly just telling you hes dying to avoid hanging out with a self superior, arrogant know it nothing? Ive got three techs, two german only shops, TT tuning, and you all telling me that you cant figure out a very simple answer- wether or not the single pin flywheel and pressure plate
are compatible with the earlier transmissions, with specificity. yeah, youre bad ass.

---

Nobody said anything about a hardship, I said I don't have to answer your every question, and you got what you paid for essentially, or didn't you get that?

  No, you think I post like a pro because frankly, I know quite a bit about the 020 and it shows.
What I think is funny is that someone with all those certs is stumped with a simple clutch. But hey, I'm just a simple non-certified idiot I guess.... of course, this idiot has fully functioning clutches on his vehicle.

  Your questions aren't weird, they're stupid. I've sorted the issue already, you can check the spare tire pressure if you like. It won't affect the clutch. 4mm and 24mm.... what part of that don't you get?

  Seriously, get some help reading. In case you didn't notice, the OP failed to follow up on the thread. I can't turn the wrenches for people, I can just tell them what I know. If they stop posting, they either fixed it or something. It's not my job to follow up. If they post again, I usually will though.

  I do. You've got faulty clutch parts, or, based on what I know about you at this point, it's more likely you've assembled them incorrectly

  Censor got you, but I get it. Of course, I can read... it's what makes me an epic rebuilder.

  No, I am. You are not. You've suggested I screw my mother and can't get a clutch kit to work. I think anyone can see who the pro is here.

  Well good thing for you then.

  Riiiight. MY attitude sucks. I give out free info, you still don't get it, you demand more info and then question my help... and I'M the dickless one with attitude.

  Once again, failure to read. You definitely have a comprehension issue. It isn't MY Scirocco, it is all of them. They use MK1 mounts and the trans are... you know what, why would I bother typing it, you just won't get it again.

  The site I routinely refer to as awful and messy... the one where I repeatedly state I'm no web designer? That one I'm so proud of? OK.

  You're actually too simple to understand that asking someone how long they've been working on something, telling them they need to verify their info, and so on is absolutely accusatory?

  And you've reached a new low, suggesting my friend dying of cancer is lying.

  No, you moron, you're telling ME you can't figure it out. I'm not the one asking for help.
Also, I happen to see a common denominator here... all these people are stupid but YOU, and YOU can't figure out the clutch problem.
Yeah, it's all THEM. It's not YOU.

  You never asked that, and of course they do. What kind of simple and moronic question is that from someone so certified and experienced with VW's? Are you serious? I've posted that at least 100 times in the last couple years all over the place. I'm pretty positive I state on my site somewhere that the PP and FW must be matched parts. It's kind of common knowledge.

I'm pretty sure you're just a moron, and you've qualified to be only the 2nd person to make it on my blocked list, good job!

---